Re: Satellites running IP

From: Eric Travis ([email protected])
Date: Tue Jun 18 2002 - 11:58:55 EDT

  • Next message: Adrian J. Hooke: "Re: Satellites running IP"

    Daniel Shell wrote:
    >
    > Is SCPS an IETF RFC on a standards track yet?
    >
    > Dan Shell
    > Network Architect
    > CISCO Systems
    > Gobal Defense and Space Group
    > Wireless/Mobile Networking/ Satellite
    > 216 643 2422

    Hi Dan,

    How are things going at Glenn?

    I'm confused by what you are asking but you've been
    affiliated with NASA/Glenn and familiarity with SCPS
    goes back long enough for me to remind you (sadly, not
    for the first time):

      SCPS is NOT a protocol, but it is a set of
      recommendations covering four protocol layers
      (or 3.5 if you consider security a sublayer).

    Lots of things in the SCPS recommendations are
    covered by IETF RFCs that are standards or standards
    track - those things include such obscure things as
    IP, TCP, UDP, ICMP, etc.

    You knew all that, however.

    If you are specifically asking whether the enhancements
    that contribute to TCP Tranquility are covered by an IETF
    RFC (Standard, Standards Track, Experimental, etc.) - then
    the answer is:

       Nope - nobody every claimed they were, and
       nobody in known space loses any sleep over it.

    But:

      The SCPS options have valid IANA assignments
      (Options 20-23) and the protocol 106 covers
      operation when using the SCPS compressed TCP
      headers.

      As an aside:
        I happen to pass lots of traffic onto the Internet
        using TCP-Tranquility and I'm at least as nice as
        every other TCP flow that I observe.

    Had NASA (or any other Space agency) expressed
    a non niche interest (backed with the commitment
    of necessary resources) in deploying any Internet
    derived technologies over the space link and
    beyond, the TCP modifications probably would have
    been submitted as IDs with the desirement/goal of
    having them someday make Experimental RFCs[*];

    [*] If I remember correctly, you folks at GRC
        stated several times that you were going to
        take elements of the SCPS recommendations
        into IETF as part of the ACTS 118X (or Next?)
        activities - maybe I should be asking you
        your question - eh? :o)

    As it stands, the question needs to be answered:

    Why waste the IETF's time and meeting space on such
    a insignificant problem space (no pun desired) that
    even the mission folk at the space agencies don't
    realm consider more than research?

    Does everything need to be covered by an IETF Standard?

    As I've said many time before (to you and others):
    for a terrestrial environment, the elements of the
    TCP-Tranquility feature set are experimental and tailored
    primarily for the space environment (but work well in any
    lossy tetherless network):

      Pure Rate Pacing is only useful for reserved paths

      Selective Negative Acknowledgements are best for
      environments far more lossy than should be on any
      end-to-end path going over the Internet backbone.

      The Vegas modifications seem to work well in general
      but there still *may* be some nasty edge conditions
      in networks that would not be typical to the space
      environment.

         Any bandwidth estimation techniques are
         likely to be burdened by the same concerns.

      Separating congestion signaling from loss:
        We've never advocated running a default loss assumption
        other than congestion for anything sharing an end-to-end
        path with a public network (that may have different
        assumptions and not the necessary machinery to explicitly
        signal congestion)

      Explicit signaling of loss (trends)
        I seem to remember some traffic polling for interest
        on this topic (this mailing list or end-to-end);
        This is somewhat of a localized issue and maybe not
        something that needs an IETF standard.

      Link outages are a local problem and probably not something
        that requires an IETF standard.

    There is more, need I continue down the list or have I made
    the point?

    We've never been looking to push these concepts on a wired
    infrastructure, but rather have always advocated using them
    in networks which interface to a wired infrastructure.

    The most valuable thing that the space community (and anyone else)
    gets from protocol standards are standard *interfaces* - which
    include important things like header formats;

    Further, standardized state machines seem to track across diverse
    environments, but the behaviors not covered by those state machines
    may not.

    It is not clear to many of us that the protocol behaviors which are
    best for operating over a diverse terrestrial network are necessarily
    the best behaviors for operation over a resource constrained, time
    bounded delivery infrastructure that is prevalent in most space
    environments (and more than a few tetherless environments)

    You've probably been dealing in networking for long enough that you
    probably remember the stupid/evil days of GOSIP - right?

    Please don't depress me and claim that everything used in a space
    environment needs to be blessed as an IETF Standard (or Standards
    track) RFC?

    Do you think the behavior of all the traffic that you are seeing on
    your networks is strictly covered by (and conforming to) IETF Standards?

    Faith in guiding principles *can* lead to many wonderful things,
    Dogma *always* leads to disaster, grief and collateral damage...

    Now - what was your question again?

    Eric



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